What I'm still missing here is, if these techniques didn't work with Amy or Tommy, why is there an expectation that they will work with Dora? Are there other techniques that would be more effective at this point? I guess these techniques worked for Beth, but she was much younger than Dora, and she didn't have a superstar Beth right there next to her doing everything well in comparison, and making her more obstinately determined to not give in.

There are plenty of positive messages coming her way as well, not the least of which is that she is capable of making choices that work IN her favor, not against her. Are you advocating that she gets all the same perks as Beth but is required to do nothing in return? That it is fine for Dora to spray her ugly mood all over the world and there are zero consequences to that? That it is OK to refuse to do anything to contribute to the household but she should still go roller skating and eat steak? What are YOUR suggestions, fenyimom? Where in the real world can someone expect something for nothing, indefinitely?

BTW, "Superstar Beth" is held to a high level of accountability, screws up, makes amends, makes better choices. Just like the rest of us when a cop stops us for speeding or we do something else that has consequences. Beth models a real life, with real choices, and real mistakes--not a perfect life, but a real life. Just as Kyle and Steph modeled that for Amy. Are you suggesting that it is unfair to have successful kids in the same family as a kid who doesn't want to succeed, because it causes "undo pressure"? What would you suggest I do about the motivated kids? Ignore their success?

I'm suggesting that it sounds from your post very much like your objective is to break Dora, the way they do with Army recruits, so that you can then rebuild her the way you want her. You've already found the hard way that you couldn't break Amy, but seem determined to use this method on Dora.

I am not saying anything about not having difficult kids live in the same family as more successful kids. But I guess I am saying something about having different expectations for different kids. Your definition of success is so narrow, and your will is so strong, that it must be very difficult to be a child in the Spoolstra household who refuses to bend to that will.

Platitudes are great, fenyimom, but I am still waiting for your concrete suggestions on how to handle a nonreciprocal child. My husband always tells me the business rule is, "Don't make criticisms if you don't have suggestions."

Fenyimom, I have to say I agree with you.

Nancy, there are lots of other alternatives out there that are working for lots of parents and children. Having read your blog for a long time now, you appear to have blinders on to the fact that there is any other way.

Some ideas:

The Explosive Child by Ross Greene
The Connected Child by Caryn Purvis
Beyond Consequences Logic and Control by Heather Forbes and Bryan Post

Dr. Bruce Perry has alot of great insights as well.

“Instead of asking yourself, ‘What’s it going to take to motivate this kid to behave differently?’ ask ‘Why is this so hard for this child? What’s getting in his way? How can I help?’” Dr. Ross Greene

There are things at play here I can't describe. I am working with a therapist. We discussed all options just last Friday. My husband is a very different individual than I am, and he is totally on board with the direction things are moving. I know why Dora is angry. She knows, too. She talked at great length to the therapist about how she is treating me, who she is really angry with, etc. She's very smart. The therapist pointed out how Dora has all the control over this, and how control is what Dora wants. So the way this is unfolding is the way THREE adults have scripted it, and Dora is playing into it. It isn't about breaking her. It is about choices. The real world is full of choices. I have talked, and talked, and talked ad nauseum to her. Her anger is understood, her pity party is not.

Nancy - we have employed many of the strategies you use with Dora. Some work, some don't. I think that the objective is the same for all of us: to raise a child who will be healthy, happy and successful. Now, success means different things to different people and a truly successful person could be one of very modest means, but the bottom line is what you keep saying over and over in your posts - "is this going to be acceptable in the real world?" Most of the time what our kids try to pull over on us will make them very, very unpopular and unhappy in real life. They will not be able to keep a job for long, maintain even superficial relationships for long or just participate in the human race. Just because your methods don't sound all "touchy-feely" doesn't mean you're being abusive. I know that, I'm sure others do to, they just have to have a reason to question. BTW, wouldn't it be nice if we could break them down and rebuild them in 6 weeks like boot camp? It'd sure save us alot of headaches and heartaches if that actually was an option!!

You're talking to her head and saying I've done my part, it's up to her now. You need to reach her heart--that deep down part of her heart that has been deeply wounded, abandoned not once, but twice. How loving would you feel toward someone who is eating steak while you're eating oatmeal?

It's so easy to get caught up in our fears of the future that we can't be in the moment with our children who are always in the moment.

I hear what you are saying, Ruby, but believe me, we (the therapist, my husband, me, and others as well) have been talking to her heart. Her heart and her needs and her views have been heard, respected, addressed. However, the minute things don't go the way she wants them to go or the way she thinks they should go, she plays nasty. As Img said, in the real world, that won't fly.

For what it is worth, she finished her chores, and is inside now eating turkey burgers and potato casserole. Also for what it is worth, I eat oatmeal for breakfast, too... not steak!

I did this recently with my own little one. We were in the midst of anniversary issues and she needed to know that I was still strong enough to handle what she could dish out to me.

We did an oatmeal, peanut butter and chores day, and she turned it around. She saw that I was still strong, could still handle her "stuff" and is now back to my happy little girl.

Having talked with Nancy off-line, and knowing the "full story" of the issues, I feel that she's doing the right thing. She's not doing this to hurt Dora or to make her feel bad about herself.

I agree with Nancy and I don't quite like how feni was comparing Army BCT with living with a RADish. My Dh is in the Army and after been a screwup and always making the wrong choices the Army has finally gotten that inner amazing diamond out that I knew was there but couldn't do all the work alone at helping him become a wonderful man. He has attachment issues but has healed since being with me and joining the Army. I wish that it was that easy to help a Rad child bring out what is their true selves are and feel Bct is only 9 weeks. My Radish needed ways to get his anger out but would refuse to do any kind of work so instead he would destroy his room, break doors, windows, toys and basically anything he can get his hands on. You guys need to look at the big picture and not just the fact that she is making Dora do some work.

Your post has made me pretty sorry for Dora, actually. So your nine-year-old foster daughter played around instead of working, pouted, and tried to get her foster sister to do her work for her. That's fairly typical nine year old behavior, but today she's out in the barn with frozen horse excrement. I think I'd be mad at you too.

She doesn't feel like your daughter after six months of living in your household, doesn't "give back" (whatever that means) and the adoptive parents who had her for nine years decided to just give her away to strangers? I think this kid has some very legitimate reasons to be throwing herself a pity party, to not trust you, to not trust what anyone else says or does. It takes time to learn how to love someone when someone has ripped your heart right out of your chest and stomped on it. I'm sure you mean well and that you've been doing your best with her, but I hope you realize that some of your expectations might be pretty darned unrealistic. Hopefully her therapist is doing her and you some good.

sltgjt, I've been reading Nancy's blog for a long time. Believe me, I'm looking at more than making Dora do some work. But I know it's unpopular on these blogs to express any disagreement with the blogger. And while I know how important it is for us parents to support each other, I don't think it does any of us any good for us to never question the methods of another.

Kelly, glad that it worked for you. I too am a strong parent and my children know well what I can do for them and be to them.

Well, it probably would have been more balanced if I also posted about the rocking we have done this weekend, the talks that followed her physical labor which, as usual, opened the doors. It would be helpful if I could share more details, but out of deference to her particular situation, I can't ... therefore I can't give you the big picture. Foolish me for trying. I am hearing your comments, processing them, and learning my lesson that until I can present the whole story, I shouldn't post much at all. Dora would be glad to know many of you are feeling sorry for her. I, too, have empathy for much of how her life has unfolded. However, that does not preclude me from holding her responsible for making the most of life going forward, and the opportunities afforded her to do so. I sympathize and empathize with her losses and abandonment; I don't buy into pity parties. They are nonproductive and take away her need to be responsible for her own life and her own happiness. The therapist concurs.

Dora's "perfect world" as described BY HER tonight would be "I would be spoiled and not have to do any chores." I'm thinkin' that's not going to fly, at least not in my family.

Also, there are LOTS of folks, me and Beth included, who have the privilege of moving horse manure in the winter time ... last I knew horses didn't just poop in the summer. A chore is a chore ... and it needed to be done. The fact that she didn't have anyone around to con into doing it for her was just gravy. Part of what she did was bag empty feed sacks in the barn. Not heavy at all. And clean up where the cat poops ... in the barn, not frozen. So does that mean she shouldn't have to throw out the trash and clean up after the cat?

Shame on me for not providing details about the weeks of nastiness (by her own admission) that preceded this weekend. Yes, I get grief and loss. Yes, I am more than available to her to process those feelings. But after all the help and tools she has been given as to how to not bite the hand that feeds her, for her to categorically state she doesn't want to change and to readily acknowledge she is being nasty to the family requires some kind of response that indicates those choices have consequences. We don't expect her to be anything close to integrated. We DO expect her to be working on her life to some degree, not just blaming the world when she doesn't get her way.

I think it's important to challenge people around us (not only the kids) to change even when their ideal would be just to waste their life away...
My husband's ideal life would be to eat, watch TV, and sleep. He would prefer to be "left alone to his misery". His excuse for not trying anything: whatever I do, it's not good enough.
I do believe as Nancy blogged some time ago that we need to have expectations of others. Not to just accomodate their useless lifestyle. I
told my husband that I do expect him to be excellent and not "good enough".
Same as doing excercise, it hurts to do it but results are beneficial. Same goes for expectations of 'life performance'. I know it's hard to live a useful/ productive/ contributing life but at the end there are benefits to the individual and others.
I support Nancy's effort wholeheartidly.

Sounds like Dora has a stubborn streak. Be sure to throw in some Kathryn Leslie coaching. I wish I'd have known about that back in my early days. She may have her pity party habits well embedded and a bit of coaching might help form new habits of giving back.

Good suggestion, lucy, and we have done that. "This would be where you would say ...." It is a great tool.

I have always taught my children that they can choose to have their past make them strong,empathetic people,or they can choose to have their past rule their lives and be constantly miserable. When you teach your newest dd that she has control(choices) you are giving her a gift. Chores,hard work and simple food is not abusive. It is a means to healing. It is much harder to hold kids accountable for their actions than it is to allow the attitudes and behaviors that will keep them lonely and miserable their entire adult lives. The real world will not care that our kids have been abused and abandoned. It is loving to give children the tools they will need to make a way for themselves as adults.
Lindy

"The real world will not care that our kids have been abused and abandoned."

You're absolutely right. Nobody is saying otherwise though you all are really stuck on that. That's your fear talking. But again, there are other approaches that work and they also prepare our children for the real world. Just in a different way.

Nancy is a parent and I absolutely respect her right to parent her children as she sees fit as long as she is not abusive. (And giving reasonable chores to children is not abusive--never said it was.) But it is a parenting style based on fear and high control and it's not how I prefer to do it--also my choice and my prerogative. Nancy also chooses to write about it in a public forum where others are reading and learning. As long as there's a comment section provided, readers have the right to question her, state their opinions and make suggestions. And she doesn't have to listen. She doesn't even have to defend.

I think back to Amy's comment on the long ride to one of her final therapy sessions. She said something along the lines of she knew what she had to do, she just didn't want to do it. It struck me earlier this evening thinking about Dora that Nancy was talking to Amy's brain, too, not her heart. Perhaps if the message had reached deeper into her heart, things would be different today. Then again, perhaps not.

Nancy,

I continue to be amazed at the risks you are taking in educating and helping those with RAD kids. It is very difficult to articulate that the things that you are doing can be done with love and compassion. We are doing something similar with our son. I, however, don't EVEN attempt to explain it to people and live a rather cloistered life. We did the same with his sister whom we adopted at the same time and she is blossoming into a beautiful young lady full of vim and vigor.

How do explain the "unmanageable" child to someone who sees that the behaviours look so like their 13 year old? They just don't understand THE PLACE these behaviours are coming from. So I don't attempt to explain and smile warmly and am vague and make sure that my son is close to me and not without my husband or myself. How do I explain that he shoved a pencil down a child's throat for no apparent reason? How do I explain the sexualized behaviours that, thankfully, only we have seen and no one else has because we have kept him close.

Sadly, I believe, most of the nay-sayers want to believe that some of Dr. Post's and others methods will work on the kids having difficulty. Some might, but some don't.

sigh. Again, I applaud you for your efforts both to encourage those of us in the trenches and risk all the haranguing. I am tired just reading it.

patricia

I'm not there and don't know the back story, but I do know that normal nine-year-olds, having been one and having known some -- even ones without the level of loss that this one has -- are sometimes recalcitrant, sulky, and don't want to do their chores. Dora's behavior sounds to me like normal bratty nine-year-old behavior, complicated by a pretty normal response to what has happened to her. It's really not too surprising that she'd prefer to be spoiled and not have to work. Obviously you don't let her get away with that or with being nasty to you. On the other hand ... wow, the kind of pressure she must be under, from the therapist, from you, from her teacher, from all these people who were strangers six months ago.

I think some of the reactions you might be getting is the language that you use in your blog. It's the nine-year-old's job to "give back," to "let go of her mother" and decide to be part of your family and love the ones she's with, etc. She wants to "jump into Beth's life" without "doing the work." She's a child, you're the adults. Are you working as hard on your relationship with her as she's supposed to be working on her relationship with you? What exactly is it she wants that your older girl has and how are you responding to that? If you're giving her boots and sweaters for Christmas while she's watching Beth open up toy after toy after toy or if she sees you doing fun stuff with Beth while she's being sent to work out in the barn, I can see how that might breed some resentment, even if she's been a pill to everyone. I don't know that that's what you're doing or how you actually interact with her, based on your blog. I'm not saying that she shouldn't be held accountable for bad behavior. It's really impossible to gauge a situation based on a blog that doesn't give the whole story or a real picture of all the emotions involved. But yeah, I do feel sorry for your foster daughter -- not that I'd let her get away with being nasty and bad-tempered or avoid doing a reasonable share of the chores, either -- given what I've read.

Constructive questioning is appropriate....judging the parenting styles and methods of a person who has a great deal of experience and knowledge of attachment issues is stepping over the line. Nancy shares with us in order to educate. She chooses what to share and provides a important insights with few words. Those readers who cannot or will not read between the lines are being extremely shortsighted. Any one of us who is parenting a RAD child knows that we are in a war zone each and every day. We have to dig deeply from our hearts, souls and brains to provide the structure and the blueprints for them in order to help them feel safe. Feeling sorry for them does them absolutely no good. They do enough of that for themselves. Our safe households are the training grounds for them. It's our responsibility to prepare them for the real world...a world that will not cut them any slack or attend any of their pity parties. Society will not love them like we do. Society will not give them second, third or fourth chances like we do. Instead of being critical of each other's methods of parenting, we should be joining forces to educate society (schools, therapists, doctors, social workers, etc.) so that there will be a hint of a safety net for our soon-to-be adult RAD's when they need it. And they will need it. Our prisons are full of people who needed it and it wasn't there for them. Let's work together rather than be tear each other down. Exchanging ideas is great. Attacking others is not. Let's be the grownups here.

Once, it seems like a long time ago, I thought I knew a lot about children, and parenting. After all, I was one, and I grew up in a house full of siblings. Then I had children of my own, and though they were challenging, I felt like I was doing a pretty good job with them, and they seemed to concur. Then we adopted a sibling group of older children, and everything I thought I knew and understood went out the window.

This is an in the trenches type of parenting I could not have conceived of. And yes, plenty of people judge us and talk about us behind our backs now. Armchair experts who have never lived with the types of concerns we live with. They see us as overly protective, structured, and strict. Probably as unduly harsh as well. Of course they do not see the endless conversations that take place behind closed doors. Or the hugs, or the hundreds of times a child is forgiven and given the chance to begin again.

Ironically these are the same folks that would not cut this child any slack, as time wore on and they began to experience some of the behaviors. Like a teacher that snuggles my child and buys into their pity party ....UNTIL this child lies to them repeatedly, and they begin to regard them as a "little sneak". You see, the world really does NOT love them the way we do as parents. They are not even willing to forgive them again and again NOW, while they are children, and give them a clean slate to try again. So how much more cold will their world be when they are adults enmeshed in these behaviors?

Besides, how many times have we gone back and thanked our parents for making life easy for us? For failing to hold us to a higher standard? But my adult children have come to me later and thanked me for making life tough for them. Even our adopted children begin to drop bits of this into their conversations...like, remember when I used to do this, or how it made me so mad when you made us do this? Of course this is said with a smile and a giggle, because they realize how they were fighting for trash at the time...the right of a smart kid to make dumb choices.

Wow Scraps - awesome post!

Typical or not, kids like ours need an enviroment of safety, stability and consistancy. Sometimes that comes from doing stinky chores, or eating simple food.

You just won't even CONSIDER that there's another way. Take your blinders off people!

CONTROL, CONTROL, CONTROL...POWER, POWER, POWER...SAME OLD PROBLEMS FOR YEARS AND YEARS AND YEARS THAT DON'T GET ANY BETTER.

It's hard, I know, but it's so worth it. Open up your eyes! Open up your hearts!

Not sure where you get the whole power and control thing. We don't want to control our kids, we want to empower them to use their survival skills to their advantage. We want them to learn to love. We want them to have empathy for others. We want them to understand that they CAN and DO have control over their choices and that making GOOD choices will lead to an easier life. I've seen Nancy parent and I've parented 9 kids of my own. I don't see where you are getting that we want control over our kids. We don't want them to give back because we NEED anyting from them, we want them to learn to give back and understand that relationships go two ways. We want them to learn to be part of good relationships. Not sure why you think Nancy wants control. Never seen that in her at all.

Lucy

It's fruitless for me to cite example after example. But from my vantage point, it screams from the page.

I'm becoming accustomed to being ridiculed for advocating a different approach. I suspect when Nancy first started speaking about RAD she also was ridiculed for her viewpoint. That's OK. I'm passionate about healing these kids. I've found an alternative way that WORKS for my kids and for other kids I know. And yet here on a blog where Nancy constantly preaches that we should support each other, I get told that I don't get it, that I haven't walked in your shoes, etc., because I don't agree that there's only one way. There's blinders on. Rarely, is there one way to skin a cat. And yet here, that's exactly the message.

It's OK. I have tough skin. I'm not going anywhere. You can read in the comments that there's people reading this blog that are turned off by how Nancy and others speak of and treat their children who will know that there are other ways. And that's a good thing. If the blog itself is not balanced and does not support an exploration of all the latest research and methods, perhaps the comments will provide a little glimpse of it.