Reactive Attachment Disorder, RAD Blog - Poor little Oliver Twist

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Reactive Attachment Disorder Blog

09/21/07

Poor little Oliver Twist

Posted by : Nancy Spoolstra in Reactive Attachment Disorder Blog at 09:47 am , 515 words, 418 views
Categories: Stealing

Answers.com defines stealing as follows: to take (the property of others) without right or permission. It does not define certain circumstances where it is acceptable to steal or not ... it says taking property without right or permission.

In a recent comment, Mater had this to say:

As for stealing, here I disagree with Nancy Spoolstra that stealing is stealing. Without intending in the least to pry, I do believe it matters what children take and what are the circumstances, such as the child's age/understanding and cultural background. For an extreme example, throughout history, the man who steals bread for his starving children has been considered less immoral than the man who robs a widow of her savings. Likewise with children, for example, it matters greatly the age of the child who takes a neighbor's toy. I see this as a fairness issue. That is why I asked what the child was accused of stealing.

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It appears to me that the very nature of Mater’s question implies that I don’t know the difference between stealing to survive and stealing for less altruistic reasons. Trust me, Dora is not in a Charles Dickens/Oliver Twist circumstance in my home. She is fed regularly and is, in fact, an eating machine. She most certainly doesn’t need to steal to get her physical needs met. Furthermore, I know more than many folks about Piaget's hierarchy of development, age-and-stage behaviors, developmental lags and progressions, etc. I most certainly know how old Dora is and at what point stealing moves past the toddler who wants his neighbor's toy.

I stated that Dora does not need to steal to meet her physical needs ... but does she steal to meet her own emotional needs? Yes, of course she does. And we have talked about it … stealing is a form of gaining control over a life which feels very out of control to her right now. Stealing is a way of expressing anger and sadness. Is it a healthy way? Of course not! Do I do her a disservice when I allow her to continue negative coping mechanisms? Yes, I do! Therefore, it is in the best interests of her emotional health that I inhibit or curtail her opportunities to practice this coping mechanism, as long as I am providing healthier alternatives … which, of course, I am.

Additionally, which of you likes to have someone rifle through your personal stuff on a regular basis? One of my friends has often expressed to me how her son’s stealing is the thing that drives her the most crazy. Nothing is sacred in her home, and she mightily resents this behavior … and who wouldn’t? And where does this resentment eventually land? On the child. So it is in everyone’s best interest that I not allow this child to steal. It doesn’t matter whether she steals money or objects or whatever. Stealing is a deceptive, manipulative behavior that will not serve her well in future relationships or in society and it needs to be addressed and curtailed.

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21 comments

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Comment from: Sunbonnet Sue [Member]

another thought is: extend out the stealing behavior. Say, someone took one package of candy from a store. or even just one piece of bubble gum. whatever. the store owner speaks up. the stealing is defended. after all, it's just one, right? well, what if every single person who walked in the store took "just one." at what point would there be harm done?

Permalink 09/21/07 @ 09:30

Comment from: Chromesthesia [Member]

", such as the child's age/understanding and cultural background."

Wait a second. There's that thing i am growing to hate.
This concept that just becuase a person comes from a different background or has had a rough life we should make excuses for them rather than disciplining them (in a reasonable way) for something that is wrong.
Just because a child has had a rough past, it doesn't mean that they shouldn't be reasonably punished for something like stealing. They will grow up to live in the real world and no one will have mercy on you just because of your background or should.
A child has to be taught how to live in this world and treat people with respect. If you don't teach a child it's wrong to steal in your home what happens when they get to school? No kids want to put up with a kid rifling through their stuff and taking their things. It will make it hard for a child to form relationships and friendships.
Especially if a child is well fed and well taken care of.
That relativism thing needs to be banned. It's so condescending...

Permalink 09/21/07 @ 10:02

Comment from: [Member]

Nancy,

I totally agree that stealing is stealing if its taking someone else's property without right or permission.

What does sometimes bother me though is when parents accuse their child of stealing food from, say, the family refrigerator. I see this as very different from stealing money from mom's purse. Not because food is inherently different, but because food in the family home, is well, family food. For the most part the food will eventually be parcelled out as dinner or treats or whatever; for the most part food is bought for the family, not for 'just mom' or 'just dad'. So in some sense it does belong, at least in part, to the child. Shouldn't the child be forgiven for thinking so?

By way of contrast, imagine a child taking food from the refrigerator of a home they do not live in. Clearly stealing right? Visitors have no right to the food in someone else's home. Should children feel like they're visitors in their own home?

So taking family food without permission just doesn't seem like stealing to me. It seems more like a rule infraction. More akin to taking food into the bedroom, or not sharing, than to stealing money. Yes, it's thoughtless to eat food that mom might have later plans for, but "stealing"?

That's why I would want to know what was stolen. (Not that I was the one who asked.)

Btw, it sounds to me like you're doing a great job with Dora. (And it doesn't sound like she stole food...)

Permalink 09/21/07 @ 11:25

Comment from: [Member]

Sorry, the previous post, by "member" was by me. I didn't realize it was going to post without a name.

Apparently, I responded to this post without having read the immediately prior one or Mater's previous comments. I just went back and caught up.

I would like to say some words in defense of Mater.

I am also the parent of a child with severe attachment problems, PTSD, etc.. I know about RAD and therapeutic parenting just like other readers here. I am also a developmental psychologist. So I have some professional knowledge as well. I follow Nancy's story because it's interesting and I appreciate her passion and commitment to changing how our society views trauma in children.

However, I do not always agree with Nancy's techniques. And I do not think it is in anyone's best interest in this community to try to shut out dissent. Attachment therapy has suffered from very bad PR in this country and sounding intolerant or dogmatic about defending it doesn't help the cause, no matter how well-intended the motivation.

Plus, history has certainly shown that intervention methods change over time. Things that seemed right in one era, turn out later to have been wrong. We should all be open to that possibility, be it the use of hormone therapy for menopause (to give a recent well-known example) or the requirement for a child to ask permission to use the bathroom. Respect goes both ways.

-Another RAD Mom

Permalink 09/21/07 @ 11:48

Comment from: AngelaW [Member]

", such as the child's age/understanding and cultural background."

Chromesthesia, it is interesting how I had a different reaction to this. I didn't see it as an excuse. I saw it more that reality needs to be acknowledged.

My daughter's orphanage culture was that personal property didn't exist. My daughter got a clean change of clothing every 3 to 4 days. She could wear the pink pants on Monday. But on Thursday, Luda would wear them.

In the orphanage, the strongest kid got to play with the toy.

So when she came home, her idea of stealing was radically different from mine.

Stealing wasn't stealing because there wasn't a common definition.

So disciplining (teaching) at first was about making sure the rules were understood. For example we would role play and act out the correct behaviors.

Moving back to Nancy's blog.. I didn't read the original blog or comment that triggered this post.

But from a high level (ignoring the specific details of Nancy/Dora) I understand Mater's comment. If you have a child with impulse issues, then stealing can turn into a medical issue. When my daughter is off her ADHD medical, her thoughts move quickly. She has taken things from other children/stores accidently. She literally didn't remember that she had the pencil. But this doesn't happen when she is on medication.

Nancy, I would be very curious to read about parented a rehomed child and dealing with the family cultural differences. Each family has their own culture/traditions.

For example in my family it is OK to search my purse and get gum out. But this wouldn't work in other families.

Permalink 09/21/07 @ 12:01

Comment from: scrapsbynobody [Member]

· http://scrapsbynobody.blogspot.com/

In our house (and I stress that part), the rules state that no one is allowed to take food from the fridge or cupboards without permission. First, money is tight, and we have a large family. If my teenage bio son had free rein in the kitchen, we would all find our plates empty at dinner because he could clean us out. Another bio son has an unhealthy love of junk food, and would clean out the snacks. So yes, in our house, helping yourself to food would be considered stealing, and a rule infraction. But not all houses have these rules. I say, in regard to bathrooms, or kitchens, or what have you...whatever the child can handle without doing damage to themselves, others, or property...giving them the freedom is a good thing. But frequently attachment disordered children take the most lovely or mundane things of daily life and craft weapons out of them. Like eating, or bathroom usage. I think the parnent living with said child probably has a pretty good idea what that child can handle/is capable of, and can make the best decision for them. It helps no one when we sit around and cut them down for doing the best they can for their children.

Permalink 09/21/07 @ 12:11

Comment from: scrapsbynobody [Member]

· http://scrapsbynobody.blogspot.com/

Parent. I meant parent. :)

Permalink 09/21/07 @ 12:14

Comment from: AMHFKH [Member]

I'm so glad that this has been addressed because it has made me feel a lot better reading it. My son has a history of stealing as well and we have followed through with consequences, but everybody else (especially my parents)just keep saying that it's because of his past and make it sound like that makes stealing okay. My son has gone three years of not being held accountable for stealing and then at the beginning of the year, stole something else and the school pressed charges and he's been flipping out ever since because someone actually is making him accountable for what he has done. If we don't start showing our kids that stealing is not okay, no matter what your background, then when are they going to learn??

Permalink 09/21/07 @ 12:18

Comment from: NCOZADD@aol.com [Member]

My husband grew up in sometimes dire poverty, and his parents never resorted to stealing to feed the family.... they worked, grew their own food, and leaned how to hunt, fish and trap in order to eat.

Our RADish also experienced poverty early on. One grew up with a deep-seated sense of entitlement and continues to have sticky fingers.

I would also respectfully disagree with "Another RAD Mom" about the stealing of family food.... desserts and treats can be considered as such, but with boundaries around when they could be eaten, such as right before a meal. My RADish had full and open access to healthy snacks such as fruit and vegetables, but would purposely steal other "family food" (in the fridge or cabinets) that had been set aside as an ingredient for a meal, treat or dessert. Or he would take someone else's Halloween candy or such. We could not eat anywhere in the house but the kitchen or dinig room, because of a major ant problem. My RADish would deliberately defy this by stealing food and taking it to his room. Worse, he would never throw the evidence away, and created major critter and trash issues. For my son, it was about power and control, not whether or not he could, should or would.

Permalink 09/21/07 @ 12:23

Comment from: AngelaW [Member]

OK, I just finished reading some older blogs and comments from Mater. Ugh!

Permalink 09/21/07 @ 12:30

Comment from: [Member]

NCOZADD -- I totally agree that the RAD child will break rules just for the sake of breaking them. But not all infractions are stealing. That was my only point.

And I also see how in a house with limited resources, where taking food without permission forces someone else to go without, is more serious than in a house with abundant food. But, that is a very fine line to expect a child to understand; unlike taking food from somebody else's house, which is a pretty clear line.

And just to be clear, my child used to steal alot. So it's not that I've never since this behavior.

Permalink 09/21/07 @ 12:36

Comment from: MamaS [Member]

The first Sunday that I took my orphanage-raised 4-year-old daughter to church I was met afterward by an outraged nursery worker who informed me that mt daughter STOLE FROM THE COLLECTION PLATE! Translation: When they passed the plate around the circle, she removed one quarter -- then she went into a corner of the room and put it into her mouth. In her previous situation the nuns would pass around plates of pusos and each child would take one and find a quiet (safe) corner to eat as fast as possible before a bigger kid grabbed it. She learned that coins were not food and left them alone, but not before the nursery worker told every helper to 'watch out for Maria -- she ateals'.

Permalink 09/21/07 @ 13:02

Comment from: Chromesthesia [Member]

That's kind of stupid. She's 4 and it's only a quarter. In that case she didn't know...

"Chromesthesia, it is interesting how I had a different reaction to this. I didn't see it as an excuse. I saw it more that reality needs to be acknowledged."

True, but acknowledging it should mean making sure the child knows not to do it again in a reasonable, patient kind sort of way and not stating, "She grew up in an orphanage and can't help doing that." and wringing ones hands.
Folks should definetly acknowledge that background can play a part in these things, then address what needs to be done so the child doesn't go to school or work when they grow up and have a job and do stuff like that...

Permalink 09/21/07 @ 13:27

Comment from: Brad [Member]

· http://bradadoption.blogspot.com/

In that case she didn't know...

Assuming she didn't have experience with orphanages, she didn't know. Why bash the Sunday school worker? What did she see? A child taking money and stuffing it in her mouth in the corner. She has no idea of the background.

Why not focus instead on educating her (or him)? Wouldn't it be better to let her know the reasons something occurred rather than judging her for a quite reasonable reaction?

Most people have no clue dealing with children with backgrounds outside of their own experiences. Educating them is much better than just expecting them to know better.

Brad

Permalink 09/21/07 @ 15:18

Comment from: Chromesthesia [Member]

It seems like it's hard to do that when some folks seemed trained to believe whatever they watch on Lifetime movies.
Plus some people may still continue to believe whatever preconceived notions tell them. And she probably should not have told every single helper about it so they would not judge a 4 year old harshly.

At least Nancy is trying to teach Dora proper ways to deal with her emotions unlike quite a few people folks SHOULD complain about that take a more harsher approach to put it mildly that makes me SO ANGRY...

Permalink 09/21/07 @ 15:46

Comment from: Julia Fuller [Member]

· http://special-needs.adoptionblogs.com/

My 14 yo daughter may eat snacks and meals in the kitchen. She chooses what she wants for breakfast and for lunch. Yesterday, the minute I left with a child for an appointment, she ran to the kitchen, took an apple and began eating it at her computer. Something we don't do and she wouldn't have done it had I been here. Then, she decided it needed to be covered in peanut butter. One of my favorite snacks, but not appropriate to eat at a computer. Her 7 yo brother caught her and confronted her, so she threw the whole thing away. Then she was upset and indignant when I questioned her about it. She could have had this snack in the kitchen and she knew that. The minute I leave the house, she is compelled to do something.

Permalink 09/21/07 @ 17:10

Comment from: MamaS [Member]

Chromesthesia, you obviously understand the situation. Thanks.
Brad: The nursery worker knew this was Maria's first week in the US, first time at church, and that she neither spoke nor understood much English -- "pee-pee and cookie".
She also saw Maria take the coin, bite the coin, and put the coin down (not "cookie!")
This woman also had strong feelings about international adoption and single parent adoption -- she was against both. I am NOT defending stealing. In fact, I think it is most important that families be able to trust other family members with not only possessions, but also with hopes, dreams, feelings, and 'family business'.
As to food, I was fortunate in never having to deny my children food due to a shortage. I can see where it would be hard for a child who had experienced true hunger to face that possibility without wanting to hoard.

Permalink 09/21/07 @ 17:27

Comment from: NCOZADD@aol.com [Member]

One day, while I was out running errands, I needed to make a really important (bordering on emergency) phone call. At the public pay phone, I reached into my purse for a special stash of change that I keep for just such a need - but it wasn't there. It turns out that my RADish had stolen it.

Permalink 09/21/07 @ 21:13

Comment from: nancyderen [Member]

With kids coming from long-term group care (orphanages or long-term residential treatment programs, sometimes the first step is to teach teh first part of that definition of stealing- the basic concept of "property of others." My daughter came to me with a bag containing underwear with other kids' initials in them, some dirty bandages, and soem very dirty stuffed animals with various kids' initials on them. None of the clothing I had seen her wearing over the previous six months came with her. It was explained to me that none of the clothing was considered personal property, it was communal property. This was true for most items in the program. My girl was there for over 6 years, so it took her awhile to understand the idea of personal property. I'm sure lots of kids from orphanages have the same difficulty. I think that's different from a kid who has lived in families, however dysfunctional, because generally then there is some understanding of personal property. I don't think it's a matter of saying "Oh, she doesn't know any better," but of making sure the kid can understand what the rule means before holding the kid accountable for it. Obviously, Dora is more than capable of understanding these rules- I'm just commenting on the topic in general.

Permalink 09/22/07 @ 21:44

Comment from: Mabel03 [Member]

When I saw the posts about stealing, we have had very little stealing with our RAD child, but we definitely have had a total disregard for anything belonging to us -- really rough on the furniture (after repeated warnings), not careful around things in cabinets and on shelves that mean something to me, to the extent where I put nothing out after our move in December. I did not want to see things that meant something to me broken out of disregard for me and the few small things that I value for sentimental reasons. This seems to come from the same place as the stealing: an inability to see beyond oneself and one's own desires. And the interesting thing for me to observe was the total meltdown on RAD child's part if any of his things were broken, even by accident. He was in tears and in a total rage over that, but he couldn't grasp the offense in what he was doing to the belongings of others. How does one teach compassion and empathy if that part of the brain does not seem to exist?

Permalink 09/23/07 @ 19:57

Comment from: nibor [Member]

As a mom of an a son who steals anything from anyone or anywere, this hits home. In our house "stealing is stealing". After years of working and educating and disscussing, treatment plans, paying back for disorders and such ~ this topic is just getting more and more frustrating as our 12 year old son I am afraid is going to have to learn that stealing in a sociaty is punishable sitting in Juvy. I feel like stealing is a crime that once mastered and accepted as okay allows the stealer to do almost anything he/she wants. Along with the stealing comes the lying and when they can do this they can allow themselves to commit almost any crime without any regrets.

Permalink 11/26/07 @ 15:18

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